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Lee: In your experience of working with youth in the San Francisco Public Defender's juvenile division office and the Center on Juvenile Criminal Justice, how would you describe the relationship between these facilities administration and the youth?

David Inocencio: Well, when I was at the center of Juvenile and Criminal Justice, I was dealing with the same population that I was dealing with when I was working at the Public Defenders office, and that was the San Francisco juvenile hall, which is known in San Francisco as the Youth Guidance Center...YGC. And San Francisco being its own city and county it's a rather small juvenile hall. It holds, in any given day, it can hold a population of 80 young people to 120 young people. And I think, the youth that are, describing the youth that are in there...like what kind of kids are in the hall?

L: Well actually like, the relationship between the administrations, like, umm...I'm trying to figure out how to word this...

D: Like counseling? Like were they supportive, the staff of the kids, like that kind of thing?

L: Yes, that's what I was trying to get at.

D: San Francisco juvenile hall has a small hometown feeling, but, these counselors that work inside these units, most of them have been around for a while. And, they are comfortable as counselors, I think, or they are set in their ways as counselors and the young people who come in the juvenile hall...I'm thinking this out loud as I talk to you...have a, sort of grow up in the system... they come back... it's the revolving door obviously. So the counselors get to know the kids, the young people get to know the counselors, and it becomes pretty comfortable... I think it's a pretty comfortable environment. There's a lot of manipulation that goes on, on both sides, and, there's a lot of mixed messages that go on, with the counselors and young people, and what happens also is that the counselors get frustrated because the people that are in control of their road, and control of them, the paper pushers and the bureaucrats, don't always communicate thoroughly with these front line counselors, and...so there is a lot of frustration and mixed messages up there. And some take the job... how am I trying to say it, its inconsistent, I guess. I haven't thought about it in a long time. It's inconsistent because some people go by the rules, the manual, the book, and others go beyond that and truly try to live up to the name counselor, and some just don't care and its all about a paycheck... and its being a civil service worker... being in the union... and I think that of course effects the young people, how the adults who are in the their lives are doing their job. If they are doing it right, and are trying to make a difference then I think the young people are gonna get a lot out of it. And if they are more about watching the clock and keeping kids locked up, or just not taking chances with the young people in a positive way then its gonna cause discomfort and problems, I think.

L: Could you please give me some information on the history of The Beat Within?

D: It was an idea in the early 90's, when I was working in the public defenders office, it was something that came to mind, not so much "The Beat Within", but giving young people an opportunity to share their written work, share their poetry, share their art work. When I was working in the public defenders office, sitting in these young peoples cells, talking to them and listening to them... a trust came out of my work there... between the young people and myself, and they would open up their diaries... and their art work books and share personal love letters and letters to families... and I was just so touched by what it was they were writing. And I thought at the time... wouldn't it be cool if these young people could share this work... with the larger community... with their peers... with the elders that are in control of their lives? And that was pretty much the extent of that... I would always think that when I would see these amazing little poems or amazing little letters and little did I know that 4 or 5 years later I would have the opportunity to create something from just that. And The Beat Within came about through... I'm gonna say through a lot of good people but mostly a lot of hard work on my part where I really took my job as a youth advocate really seriously, and I got a pretty good reputation within the juvenile justice system in San Francisco... from the probation officers and judges and various lawyers and so forth and community based people and that...when I had the opportunity to create such a writing program, conversation classes in the hall, the doors opened so quickly. There was not a hesitation on the part of the system when I told them that I wanted to start a writing workshop, I want to do a conversation class in a juvenile hall. Cause they knew that I didn't have a teaching credential, they knew I didn't teach big classes, I was a social worker... that was my background and I was totally good one on one but as for teaching... this is a roll of the dice on my part. And, I was very comfortable going at them because I had the support...when I came on board with the Pacific News Service in 1995 I shared my vision with the executive director... a dream that I had back in 1991 about giving young people a voice in the hall... she was very supportive of going after that dream and capturing that vision. So I knew that I had colleagues that were in my corner... it wasn't just me going in there by myself... I had the executive director who was ready to support me if the doors opened. And low and behold the doors did open and the first workshops was in January of 1996 in the girls unit in San Francisco Juvenile Hall and I'm not going to say it took off from there but... the publication didn't start right then and there, it took 9 months for the paper to come out. The first 9 months... we did surveys, conversations classes about issues of the day, a little bit of writing, this and that... we'd bring in topics, they'd write, we'd bring in food to entice the kids to come through and what have you... and I would occasionally get their pieces into another youth publication called YO which is also part of Pacific News Service, YO stands for Youth Outlook. Sometimes I'd get it into the local news paper in the city here... called the San Francisco Examiner. But that wasn't enough for these young people. They were writing and writing, and they kept calling me, "Dave what are you doing with my writing, I never see my writing, I write for you, I never see it"...and I really never knew how to answer that because I wasn't thinking publication at the time... and what really triggered that was I think, well I know what triggered that... it was the death of Tupac. When Tupac was murdered that was the topic of the week. The young people either paid tribute to him, or talked about why they hated him, or talked about why they thought he wasn't murdered or why he was hiding out, or... how they felt about this rapper/entertainer... and this writing was really powerful. And I went to Sandy, the executive director, "we need to put this out, the kids need to see their writing." And from that point, it was almost like a passing, she said, "yeah lets do it", and I said "great, lets do it, lets call it The Beat Within", and it was this 2 minute exchange, and from that point in September of 1996, we did a weekly publication ever since. So it started with the girls unit in January, and within those 9 months, I picked up a few more units in the San Francisco juvenile hall, and, by September we had this first issue, on the death of Tupac, we had this 4-page publication... which essentially grew in every unit in the San Francisco juvenile hall and their county camp... and at times it would hit 8 pages sometimes 12, but it was always around that size, the first month of the publication. Slowly but surely we worked our way into...we were invited into other counties, first it was Alameda county... and that was a whole other bunch of workshops... and a bigger county... they hold about 300 kids in their juvenile hall and the publication sort of just grew and its grown organically ever since. Its never been something that I've pushed to grow, but it sort of just happened by word of mouth, by people hearing about it, giving us a call and a soliciting us and... I've taken the chance and till this day we are doing 50 workshops... in...I don't know how many counties now, but not just in the Bay Area... we are also in Arizona, we are also in Virginia, San Louis Obispo...which is in the middle of California... and we get people writing us from all over the United States and wanting to share their stories, poetry, commentary with The Beat Within and its been an incredible ride to give young people an outlet... to give young people an opportunity to tell their stories... to teach one another and I think that's what the Beat is all about... its about us giving young people a chance to form their own ideas and to realize that they do have a voice and that they...from their pain, from their experiences, the good and the bad, most times bad... it can help another person. And it helps the young person...I hear it time and time again...that they say, "its good to read The Beat cause I realize that I'm not alone." "It's so important to feel that I'm not alone." Its always reassuring that someone else has it worse or the same as you, or just gives you some pointers with how to live your life maybe a little bit smarter. I don't want to take credit to saving many lives but I do think that people have been touched by The Beat and they save their own by just listening to one another. The Beat is totally a two way street... we need these young people as much as they need us... if they take the publication seriously it is them that make the publication what it is and it is them trusting us. They see us a community program... we don't receive any money from the government or the system... they know that we are a community program, they know that we leave our politics... for the most part at the door... us facilitators don't come in with an agenda... or... we don't get on our soap boxes and preach to them and tell them to say no to drugs and stay away from prostitution or gangs. That's something that they have to figure out for themselves... if anything, we give them a form to express themselves and learn how to get their pains off their chest and learn how to hopefully make better choices. It's not to say that I don't get on my soap box sometimes and say to say no to drugs and what not. If it goes that way then of course you step up and play teacher or elder and wear that hat. But for the most part its us facilitators going in and asking numerous questions and getting them to realize that they do have a voice and do have an answer.

L: Yeah, participating in the workshops we conduct... I've asked myself when a facilitator is suppose to step in when the conversations get out of hand.

D: Yeah, exactly. And I think its you being the broken record, and its you constantly reiterating the guidelines, or what is respectful for The Beat Within and what... what the parameters are that they can work in... and not to incriminate themselves or cause more problems for themselves in any sense of the word, or cause some kind of drama in the unit that they are housed in.

Lee: During the The Beat Within's development, what motivated you to believe that the idea would work?

D: Well like I've said it's grown organically so in the beginning I didn't know what was going to work and what wasn't. So in the beginning I just kept pushing and pushing and trying new things and eventually I found a process or a method that has been working for us for over 9 years. And what's giving us a great opportunity is that The Beat happens almost every single day... so if we make a mistake this week, thank goodness there's next week that we can hopefully correct that. It's constantly evaluating and knowing what it is that you're doing and its also not walking into this thinking you know all the answers. And also respecting your colleagues enough to work with each other and to learn from each other to see what's actually going to help make this a solid foundation. Cause I've never, even as director, like to think that I have all the answers... I'm always looking towards my peers... if they are 20 years younger or older... whatever... and listen to them and see what it is that we can do to make this a solid publication. And I've always given ownership to anyone who believes in The Beat... from the people that work as counselors in the juvenile hall, to the paper pushers, to the community and I'm always encouraging them to jump in and share their opinions or concerns so that we can hopefully work through this together.

L: What, if any... disagreements, challenges or opposition did you face in the development of The Beat Within?

D: In the beginning stages I didn't... I mean... well the doors opened automatically, well not automatically but my reputation was a really solid reputation and I don't mean to be bragging here cause I don't like to act like I'm the best or anything... I did something right as a case worker/social worker. And what I did...I played the game honestly and there are a lot of people that don't play the game honestly, obviously. And so when I made mistakes, I would work on correcting them, when I first started on The Beat Within I didn't censor anything, I allowed every, "fuck", "nigger", "shit" or whatever word just flow inside The Beat Within and of course in time I learned that that is not good. As much as you want to give them the raw uncensored voice its gonna cause some problems cause kids are gonna start doing their turf calls, talking about certain gangs and so forth... but back when I first started this, it wasn't so much that I saw it like that, I just wanted to get their raw voice out. And thank goodness it was only in one county at the time, in San Francisco. Another thing I realized, is in the beginning days we just put their pieces in... we didn't respond to pieces and I think that the system in the beginning didn't think that I was reading the pieces and that we were just dropping the pieces in. So two things, reasons why we respond to the pieces from The Beat, one is, to let the system know that yes we did read this piece, and secondly, the person that wrote this piece, first and foremost knows at least one person that read their piece, and is giving them some kind of constructive criticism or positive feedback or whatever it is that we are saying in regards to the piece that they have written for us, for themselves. As for opposition, as for people saying "close The Beat down"... I've never...no one has ever said that or said it to my face. I know that there are people out there that don't like the publication and what it stands for because its giving these young people a voice, that are incarcerated and that come from pretty messed up neighborhoods and life styles, but no one has ever written me a hate letter or called me up and told me, "forget you, we need you out of here".

L: How did you encourage or bring the youth to believe in the power of the pen?

D: Well, each kid has his or her own unique experience and one thing I've always said about the power of the pen and how it controls their life...if their sitting in juvenile hall its that pen that's controlling their life today... there is someone signing off on the report that was written about them, there's a judge that is signing a kid away into the penitentiary or to the youth group home, or to prison or what not. And how powerful writing is...and how it controls so many lives, hopefully that pen can get you that great 9 to 5 that your after or even get you that high school diploma. And I think that they discover for themselves how powerful that pen is once they start seeing their writing, and seeing their name published in a publication, I mean...that has got to be one of the greatest highs for any person... young or old, to see their name in the paper and know that folks are reading their writing. And it stems from a workshop that happened last week or two weeks ago. So its...they too figure out how powerful that pen is when they realize that folks are reading their writings and they get praise from their writings, from peers or us or they get a little following cause its so good... and people want to read more from that individual, so...

L: What ideas, advice or information did you prepare for yourself to present in the halls?

D: I kept it real with them, I've never tried to be something that I was not, so when I walked in there... and I was stuttering my way through it, and turning red and trying to figure it out I was shooting from the hip, they saw it...but they also saw that my heart and desire wasn't about me, it was about them. And they saw that I really wanted to help them... help themselves by realizing how powerful of an outlet that this could be, that they could help themselves and help the system realize that they are not all a number, they are not all a gang member, they are not all a drug dealer, that they can help break the stereo types if they take writing seriously. Or they can reinforce the stereotypes and tell us how bad of a gangster they are or how bad of a dope dealer they are, and that's on them obviously...

L: Please explain how trust applies to the access you have been able to establish with the young people behind bars. How does trust apply between the contributors and the paper?

D: Good question, trust and paper. That's why we have the paper, because the young people trust us, because they know, and I'll use their word, snitch...They know that we are not going to snitch on them and we are not tied to the police, and we ain't tied to their lawyers and we ain't tied to...the thing is we are the community, and we are consistent. What works for The Beat is that we are consistent, every week we come into their lives... the same one or two teachers is coming into their class every Tuesday, or every Thursday. And within time, they are going to get to know you, I'm going to get to know them and they realize that it's a safe place to come to our writing workshop, to share a little bit about themselves and nothing bad is gonna come from this. And the trust also develops because I'm also open to sharing a part of my life... I don't just come in acting like a professional and that its all about them, I mean, I tell them about my daughter and tell them about my struggles, and show that there is another side of me and share a part of my childhood with them and get them to realize that its not just all about them... that I too participate and play a role and share me.

L: Describe the relationship of Tupac Shakur's writing, and the contributors of The Beat Within and how all that came together.

D: Well, we all know how powerful, even till this day, how Tupac Shakur is and how he has played a role in the lives of so many young people who are from, or part of the Hip Hop/Rap/Gangster culture. Also given, that when he was murdered back in 96'...him and Biggie were probably two of the biggest rappers at that time. And I think it really numbed people, shocked people, moved people and given that Tupac had Bay Area roots, it played a significant part...and it is very ironic too, given that Tupac was an amazing poet to say the least... a lyricist... the kids truly related to his rap, or his style, his story and even in the pieces to this day...and I'm not saying that they sound like Tupac Shakur but they are going through the same type of struggle that Tupac talked about in his early raps... as well as even his gangsta raps... they too share that from the neighborhood they come from and the struggle and fears that they are dealing with.

L: How do you feel Hip Hop contributes to the development of a program like The Beat Within?

D: I think it's huge. I think 90% of the kids listen to Hip Hop/Rap music. Half of the pieces, three quarters of the pieces in The Beat Within are poems/flows. I think, unfortunately, and I hate to say unfortunately, it plays a big role... good and bad. The bad is that some people think its okay to brag about being gangsters and brag about how much dirt you have done... even if it is lies in a sense. Then there is parts of me... that says that it is important to tell their story, so I don't try to tell them to stop writing about that, or take a different angle... we allow them to write about...if its gangster stuff, the gang life... as much as they'd like, until their sick of it. Then hopefully from that point on they will branch away from the block or branch away from the gang life. That is not to say that we publish everything they write...but it's important... this is their culture, this is what they see in the videos, this is the music they listen to... so you come to expect that they are going to write about the ills of their community the way it is in Hip Hop and Rap. I mean, there is very few social/conscious poets, I mean... there is a few... I'm not gonna say there isn't... but for the most part they come from that urban, tough guy style.

L: In what way does music and the message become significant in the same educational environment as writing?

D: If I understand your question right, music...plays a huge part in these young peoples lives... to a point that they are living the life. They stop going to school in the 7th or 8th grade and what have they been doing... they've been out on the block slanging dope, riding in stolen cars, jacking people, and living the life that whoever Scarface writes about, or whatever gangster rapper is doing these days. And you know... I don't know... that's the message...but then again, is it true that it's the music that's been influencing them? Its generations... your dealing with kids that for two or three generations their fathers/grandfathers have been in the system or they are in prison right now and they are going in the same path. They've never known anything "but" being a part of the system to some capacity. I hear stories of some kids saying that they started slanging dope at 8 years or 9 years old or they were jumped in the gang at 10 years old... and these gangs have been in their community for seven generations... and I mean, this is all these kids know. And does the music help reinforce it? Maybe. But if that's all they know and that's all they can truly write about, and they can't write about the things that maybe I experienced, cause I don't come from that same type of community, or...I mean, they have yet to experienced... even seeing the ocean... they have been stuck on their block for so long...or traveling outside the state... they don't know about that at all.

L: What does writing provide for young people? What does writing provide for incarcerated youth? I split it up since, if I'm not mistaken, along with The Beat Within, there is also The Beat Without...

D: I'll clarify, The Beat Without... its for those that are free as well as those that are in other institutions that we do not conduct workshops in... so it can be the adult prison, the youth prison, group homes, rehabs, boot camps, etc... But to answer the question, both inside and out, its great therapy. But for the most part, inside, its incredible therapy because these kids are carrying so much stress in dealing with being alone, dealing with not hearing from their families in weeks, not knowing where they are going... maybe they will never get out. Its deep to talk to a young person who is never gonna see freedom again... at 16 years old has murdered two people... its f'd up that he has had to go that route...but never seeing the free world again, and...help them to discover how powerful writing is... it just helps them sort of sort ideas out for themselves, help them realize...to just think better... process thinking... to get some of the stress off their chest. I've been told by counselors in juvenile halls that writing workshops helps relieve the tension in the units... there is less fights in juvenile hall because kids are now learning how to express themselves through writing...it softens them...it makes them vulnerable. Outside writing, I mean...I've done writing workshops out in the free world, but I've always been attracted to kids that are within the institutions...But I think it's a little bit different because a person who is writing on the outside in the free world is writing because...I don't know...I can't answer that, but I know why they do write in the inside. I know why I wrote on the outside... because I was getting through school or I wanted to write my friend, cause I just wanted to write to him/her. But inside these kids have never written before until they sort of stumbled upon us...even the schools within the institutions don't even push them to write the way The Beat pushes them. I'm told that the schools in these juvenile halls just give them dittos, or don't think they are as intelligent as...or don't challenge their intelligence I should say...and that's what we do, we give them a blank piece of paper, we don't give them dittos, we give them topics, we give them a couple of topics each week...we challenge them to write on the topics or whatever it is that is cooking in their head...they put it down...they make writing a habit, they'll write several pages...or they'll sneak a pencil into their unit, into their cell... cause pencils are considered contraband in their cell and they'll come back the following week with numerous pages of poetry...or their life story...so it becomes a habit... we help making writing a habit...we help them realize how powerful of a tool writing is and how powerful of a weapon it can be. And they realize how powerful of a teacher they are and they realize later how, if they get that opportunity to return home, which most do, then this is possibly their ticket off the block...


L: Who, other than the contributors, benefits from what The Beat Within is able to provide?

D: Well, of course whoever reads the publication...and that would probably be those that are in the know...from family members, school teachers, various people in the juvenile justice system, judges, lawyers, probation officers, hopefully some police officers, hopefully some community based organizations, students of...students, and those that just have interest in this youth culture, those that are incarcerated. Makes you take advantage of... if you really utilize The Beat Within the right way you will see that it is a powerful tool, a tool that will give you insight into what is really going on in the youth today...what are the real problems that these young people are facing in their communities or inside their jail cells for that matter...and I think that it can help change the criminal justice system...not to be all like I'm doing something...I mean…I really believe that if we listen to the young people we'll have a better chance of making things better within the juvenile justice system and our youth prisons and juvenile halls...cause young people know what's missing... and what's missing? Not enough people paying attention to them, not getting enough feedback from elders, or constructive criticism... I mean, when they are locked up all they are getting told is when to shit, when to eat, when to go to certain programs, watch TV, go to school, everything centers from a type of control...but what they want is someone to counsel them, they want a mentor, they want someone that is going to inspire them, lead them.

L: Would you talk about literacy and how the lack of could contribute to some of the problems you see in the hall?

D: The lack of... I meet more and more kids every year who can barely put a sentence together let alone write... have fear of writing, don't have the skill to put a sentence together... let alone look you in the eyes and answer yes or no...so its very frightening to see how, or where our young people are going with no education...to go to prison, to go into the streets, homelessness...and its really sad, when you hear stories from young people saying that, "this is the first time that I have ever picked up a book was when I came to juvenile hall", or "I haven't read since the seventh grade", and here he is seventeen years old...and its like, "oh my gosh"...and we are just reaching a few kids mind you...I mean, turn these kids on to some important books that will hopefully inspire them to realize that there is more to life than the life they are leading...if its turning them on to the Autobiography of Malcolm X or books on Cesar Chavez, or whomever...just to give them a sense of pride of their culture...or of some important individuals that have overcome some great odds, or have some important role in history...so yeah...literacy is...its frightening to say the least of the lack of...

L: How has The Beat Within approached these kids that have these literacy problems?

D: A couple of things...we will interview them, once they realize what The Beat Within is and wants to see his/her name in the publication we will help them compose pieces... we will interview them to where its their voice... and we just sort of write for them... transcribe for them...we'll just sit and talk with them and gain their trust, and give them books, and do our best to let them know that we are there for them, we care for them, we do our best to make them feel comfortable...and we'll say, "its okay... I mean, its not okay, but its okay right now, but if you want us to help you we will bring you some books next week, or we will sit with you and write with you"..."or we will take it to the next step and maybe contact your school teacher and when you get back to the free world and see what's going on with that...or your mother or your probation officer"... or do some of...we do advocacy as well in the community if it calls for it...you know, it helps to have an advocate in your corner... I think... things are a little more proactive when they know someone is paying attention to them...and I think that is a problem to... is that some of these young people are forgotten... even by their own family members... and no one pays attention to what direction they are going and why they are falling further into the cracks.

L: How does publishing and the internet contribute to what The Beat Within is hoping to accomplish through writing?

D: Well, I don't know how you found out about The Beat... but maybe you found out through the internet, I mean...it just helps to get the voice...well, the internet is an incredible tool as you know and I know, and most of the kids that write for The Beat have never been on or have ever even seen the internet...or they have heard of it, but they don't have that kind of access. It's the World Wide Web and anything is possible out there. And its just getting their voices into the hands of those that would maybe never have otherwise heard of them or seen the publication...there are students out there, there our professors out there, there are professionals that are doing research on incarcerated youth and writings, and you do a Google search and hopefully The Beat Within will pop up and give someone some hope and maybe I'll end up talking to them as well... or helping them start their own Beat Within program...and that would be awesome.

L: From your experience, define what "at-risk" is and explain the role writing plays in helping the young people that are considered at-risk.

D: At risk...I think people... young people that are living on the edge, truly living on the edge...to be at risk of incarceration, death, addiction, and I think writing plays a part for them...once they discover writing, or once they discover The Beat Within, then maybe they will see the light, that there is a better way to live their lives...Yeah, I don't know...But then again it's a hood sickness too, they're sick, its an addiction, it's a bad habit, and its hard to break. Especially if they want to break, and they'll write all the right things in The Beat...but, bottom line, when they return home, what are they returning home to? The same ill plagued block/neighborhood that has dope fiends, drug dealers, and gang members and access to guns and drugs, and the broken home, and that is something that we cannot correct. And so to ask a young person to change... no one is asking you to change...and I know it would be hard for me to change... its hard for me just to change little habits like biting my finger nails... and we are asking these young people to do these dramatic changes... and let alone they have no structure in their lives, and so...we put a lot these young people, and then we fail then and put them deeper into the hell that can possibly lead to prison or death... running, lots of running...always running.

L: How important has the term "consistent" been for The Beat Within?

D: That is so important in the lives of the young people... which they don't have. They don't have that in their life. Whether an inconsistent role model, inconsistent person and that's why I think a lot of them fail or fall, and to show consistency, also, it shows that you have respect for that person, and you care about that person and it inspires that person to try a little harder, or to pay a little more attention, and I think its important to be, or its key to be consistent/persistent, and I think that is when you have most success is when you have someone who is going to keep it real with these young people on a consistent basis.

L: What factors threaten the existence of this program?

D: Funding, sometimes it hard to get funding for a program. For nine years we have been funded and that's a great track record. But being non-profit, the fund raising world, sometimes doesn't like...they are always looking to fund new things...we have to constantly reinvent ourselves... and that's challenging. I don't think we are going to close any time soon but we have definitely had our cut backs, and eliminate a couple of workshops and that sucks. Another thing that can hurt the program, is if we are sloppy with our editing and we allow some really bad...certain pieces can get us kicked out of places. I mean, if you let someone talk about threatening someone or hurting someone that could get us in trouble with some folks. If we stop communicating with the institutions that let us in, that can get us in trouble...Its important to keep the dialogue going, its important to continue to keep the institution feeling like they have an ownership of your program...even though they don't really have much say, they do open the doors for us to go in and do these workshops, so its important for us to check in with them and do the small talk and make the feel good about what it is that we are doing. To kiss their ass, we have to kiss ass...especially in the system...so much politics, you got to... I don't like to play it but you have to play it... And I think that is one of the reasons why we have a good reputation, The Beat Within, and we have been around so long... we have always made folks that run these institutions feel good about us. They are the shot callers and we don't challenge them on it... in a sense, these are these million dollar institutions that are keeping people locked up and they open the door for us... this community program to give young people a voice...we better play this game right or no more Beat Within.

L: Do you believe writing can self-empower youth?

D: Yes, I do. Of course it can. It can make a young person all of a sudden decide that "I'm gonna leave the street life and go to college and become a lawyer, or become the president of the United States", whatever. It gives young people hope that they are more than just a thug. That they can live life legitimately. It boosts their ego up that they have an answer... that they truly have a voice. The voice is critical, we know that.

L: How does "education" apply with what The Beat Within is able to provide?

D: I think we inspire them to realize that education is as powerful as the pencil. Its what's gonna get you out of the...its gonna give you the better job, hopefully that high paying job, if that's what you want...the money. Most people do want the money. Education is key and if we can help young people realize how important education is I think that's the success on our part, and that's what we want to do, we want them to realize that if there is any institution they want to go in after this one, it should be the school house and not the penitentiary.

L: What separates The Beat Within from what standard grade school already provides?

D: We don't have to deal with the bureaucracy of that institution. We don't have to follow any guidelines such as what the public schools of those institutions have their teachers follow. We can have our young people pretty much write about... "their" writing, and we are not correcting their writing or grammar, unless they want us to correct their grammar. We our not grading their pieces unless they ask us to say in a sense whether this is a poor piece or a bad piece or...I'm not marking it up and giving them a grade after six or twelve weeks. I'm providing them simply with an outlet to get their thoughts on paper. And if they want more from this program then we will work with each kid on an individual basis. But I'm just giving them this opportunity to tell their story or get some stuff of their chest as they tell their story, and hopefully help them feel a little better about themselves. And also, their use to be this program in a San Francisco juvenile hall... all about testimonials and kids would come together and stand up and tell their stories to their peers, and speak... and get all preachy, and say "I'm gonna say no to drugs", "I'm gonna change my life and you should too"...That wasn't my personality, I'm not gonna say I was shy, but I'm not the type of person that is going to get up and start preaching that way...There needs to be another outlet because there is so many young people that want to possibly say all that, but they don't want to get up and speak that... and that's another reason why I helped start The Beat cause I think there are a lot of us that feel more comfortable writing it down, than becoming a speaker.

L: Having been involved since 1996, have you witnessed any effects that this has had on youth for the long-term?

D: There are a number of kids that are in college right now, and working with us full time returning to the juvenile halls they were once housed in and are now lead facilitators and our teachers... Will Roy for example, you will hear his story...and that's what he does now, he goes and speaks in the community and also goes back in the juvenile hall and teaches writing workshops. There are other young people that are young journalists that are pushing their writing careers and others that are working towards their high school diplomas, and seeing the light. So there are a number of...many, many successes, but it comes at all different levels. I'm also dealing with numerous kids that are never going to see the free world and they're are sitting in prison for the rest of their lives... they are not kids, they are young adults now...but their success is that they realize how powerful of a voice they have and it might be to little to late...then in the positive side...it is not to late because what it is, is their writing is possibly saving another kid from getting killed or falling into the prison system.

L: Have any studies ever been conducted on the benefit of introducing writing as a way out of the risks associated with the criminal justice system?

D: We have done one evaluation... we have done evaluations on a few writers in our workshops...but I don't know truthfully...we have done some evaluations...that I don't know... I haven't done the research on that to know what studies have been done. We have been asked to do these evaluations on some of our workshops participants and I can forward that to you if you are interested in seeing that.

L: Tell us about the relationships that The Beat Within has created with writing programs for incarcerated youth in Texas, Rhode Island, New York and Virginia? What suggestions or advice do you provide for people that decide they'd like to incorporate this sort of idea into their program in other areas?

D: I think that it is important….I'm all for collaboration but I think it is also very important that you...I don't see myself...don't see yourself as an expert in this field... go in as a student and don't have an agenda...well of course you have your agenda...but it should never be a political agenda because I think political agendas is what gets you in trouble when you go inside institutions and I think you should always be very...smother these folks with kindness, smother these people with kindness and I think kindness will get you far. Its gonna take a lot of work, it's a job that's ruthless and it never ends. We do fifty issues a year and we take two weeks off...and some other time off... and it becomes a machine, and you must be committed. You got to be consistent, consistent in the production and consistent in the workshop and I think you are going to get good results and you are going want to always continue to keep the people that have allowed you in these institutions abreast to what's happening. Don't disregard them, if you disregard them you're going to ask for your program to slowly fade away.

L: As co-founder, tell us about the expectations you had for this program in 1996, and the expectations you have for it now.

D: My expectations back then, I was totally happy in one institution... I never thought the publication would be as big as it is today Lecroy. It blows my mind, but I'm very...my expectations are that I would be able to continue to have a grasp on the day to day work of The Beat Within or the day to day production, workshops, and to this point I still have that...my hand is in the production end of it as well, I do a couple of workshops each week and I don't want to lose that cause that is why I did this work, I don't want to be strictly a paper pusher for The Beat Within... I want our fund raiser and I want to continue to touch lives. And that is why I do this work. My expectations are that everyone that does this work... I don't want them to model after me, but because their heart...because of the love. I can't tell people not to have agendas, but everyone has their reasons why they want to do this...but for the most part, we are doing it because we want to help young people figure out a better way. Because they have not found the better way if their incarcerated.